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allikat1 OWC
(@allikat1-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora Whanau/Whanui, my name is Allister Walker and i'm from Whanau a Apanui. If anyone knows the whakapa of Torerenuiarua I would be very intersted to hear from them. I am descended from both sisters who had children by Apanui Ringamutu; Te Whaaki and Te Kohepare.

I live in Hamilton and wish to explore my Tainui side. I was told by my partner's Aunty that Torere was a daughter of Hoturoa. Is this true? If anyone can shed some light on this that would be awesome.
Ka kite ano

Quote
Posted : 09 February, 2007 5:24 pm
Te Paetahi OWC
(@te-paetahi-owc)
Active Member

quote:


Kia Ora Whanau/Whanui, my name is Allister Walker and i'm from Whanau a Apanui. If anyone knows the whakapa of Torerenuiarua I would be very intersted to hear from them. I am descended from both sisters who had children by Apanui Ringamutu; Te Whaaki and Te Kohepare.

I live in Hamilton and wish to explore my Tainui side. I was told by my partner's Aunty that Torere was a daughter of Hoturoa. Is this true? If anyone can shed some light on this that would be awesome.
Ka kite ano


This is a whakapapa that was given at a wananga at Whitianga Marae in 1988:

Hoturoa
Torerenui a Rua
Tainui
Tairoa
Taimanawapohatu
Tai
Tuteauru
Rongomaiteauru
Marama Rongomaiteururangi
Wairua
Rongomaiwhitu Uenuku
Tutunui
Rakahia Uenukuhoroki
Tarera
Hinetekahu = = = = = = = = = = Rongomaiwehea

Te Whaaki = Apanui Ringamutu Te Roroku Kohepare = Apanui Ringamutu

Due to my not knowing how to use the computer properly, I haven't put in lines but Marama and Rongomaiteururangi are brother and sister and Te Whaaki and Kohepare are sisters of Te Roroku.

There have been numerous marriages with Ngai Tai. Karongarangi of Ngai Tai married Te Hiranga, a brother of Te Rangiwhakapunea who married Tukaki. Her sister, Te Rangipaanga married Kahurautao, son of Apanui Mutu and Kiritapu. To name but a few. Many lines from Haraawaka are found amongst Ngai Tai.

I hope this is of help.

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Posted : 09 February, 2007 6:24 pm
allikat1 OWC
(@allikat1-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora Te Paetahi, thanks very much for the whakapapa. If I am reading it properly, was Te Whaaki and Te Kohepare the daughters of Hinetekahu and Rongomaiwehea?

This makes sense as I belong to both Whanau a Hinetekahu and Whanau a Haraawaka. My great-grandfather Hairama Haaweti gave a lot of eveidence in the Native Land Court case which disputed ownership of the Tunapahore block around 1895.

Once again, thank you for the info
Regards
Allister

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10 February, 2007 12:58 pm
Te Paetahi OWC
(@te-paetahi-owc)
Active Member

quote:


Kia Ora Te Paetahi, thanks very much for the whakapapa. If I am reading it properly, was Te Whaaki and Te Kohepare the daughters of Hinetekahu and Rongomaiwehea?

This makes sense as I belong to both Whanau a Hinetekahu and Whanau a Haraawaka. My great-grandfather Hairama Haaweti gave a lot of eveidence in the Native Land Court case which disputed ownership of the Tunapahore block around 1895.

Once again, thank you for the info
Regards
Allister


Thats right, they were their daughters. I was told that after Kahukuramihiata left Apanui Mutu and was killed, he was very down. Te Roroku, who was the Ngai Tai leader at the time, told him to go to Torere and he would find himself two replacement wives.

Sorry, after I posted my note, I saw that things had collapsed in. To put things right, the left side of the whakapapa should read:

Rongomaiteauru
Uenuku
Uenukuhoroki
Rongomaiwehea

As a young man, my uncle told me that Torere was Hoturoa's daughter and was already an adult when the waka arrived. The waka was tied up to Te Punga o Tainui at Whangaparaoa. A couple of things happened, firstly, she got her mate and secondly, she was being sexually harassed by one of the chiefs of the waka. The result was she left the waka at Whangaparaoa and made her way overland and settled at Torere where she lived out her days. Her great great grandson, Tai, was the eponymous ancestor of Ngai Tai at Torere. I understand that some of the Torere people migrated to Hauraki and intermarried with the Ngai Tai up there. The links between the two branches was maintained over the years, thus one the Maxwell's from Clevedon married into Torere and we have a branch there. The Torere branch married into Ngati Porou and we have a branch there. I was also told that the Poutu whanau of Ngati Porou are from Ngapuhi and are also really Maxwells. I mention them because my uncle said that they and your Haweti whanau were from similar men. To close, uncle said that Torere was the daughter of Hoturoa and Whakaotirangi. The same was said at the wananga I mentioned.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10 February, 2007 6:19 pm
Te Paetahi OWC
(@te-paetahi-owc)
Active Member

quote:


Kia Ora Te Paetahi, thanks very much for the whakapapa. If I am reading it properly, was Te Whaaki and Te Kohepare the daughters of Hinetekahu and Rongomaiwehea?

This makes sense as I belong to both Whanau a Hinetekahu and Whanau a Haraawaka. My great-grandfather Hairama Haaweti gave a lot of eveidence in the Native Land Court case which disputed ownership of the Tunapahore block around 1895.

Once again, thank you for the info
Regards
Allister


Oh I should have added that this Hinetekahu is a different one from the tipuna after which the hapu is named. That one was a man, the son of Rangihore the son of Apanui Ringamutu.

Yes, Te Whanau a Apanui was very bitter over the outcome of the Tunapahore case. It was the land on which Apanui Ringamutu was born and the place of his principal residence. The whole iwi felt that loss, not just the Haraawaka and Hikarukutai hapu.

As a kid, I recall Hawai as being quite well populated. However, I think they were all your whanau, the Savages. I don't recall any other whanau living there at that time. Thats in addition to the ones at Waiorore. Its interesting to pass through the place now and to see there are houses and a shop and the marae is functional again.

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Posted : 10 February, 2007 8:53 pm
allikat1 OWC
(@allikat1-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora Te Paetahi, thanks again for the info. My Grandmother's first cousin, Peter Whitfield Savage had a farm at Hawai. He went to school at the original St Stephen's School in Parnell with my grandmother's brother James Takurua Savage. I am not too sure if we had shares there, but Peter's daughter Dulcie Bigwood sold the farm, but other cousins of mine seem to think that their shares were sold.

I am aware of the animosity between Whanau a Apanui and Ngai Tai following the aforementioned case. I read in the Torere School Centenary Book about Peter Savage's sister Lena being harrased by other children from the school as they were one of a few Whanau a Apanui children going to school there. Lena or Mrs Harp as she became, moved to Auckland and this was where Valentine Savage ( Of the book by GM Henderson ) died. My father also boarded there with her when he left Te Kaha in 1948 to commence schooling up there.

Dad was amongthe first intake at Te Kaha District High School and grew up with Wiremu Tawhai, Frank Hata, Whare Te Moana, Dick Paora, Bundy Gage, Mutu Delamere and Dick Padgett.

Oh yes and my Grandmother said most of what was written in the Taina book was a load of rukahu. Benjamin Savage used to beat my great-great grandmother, so she was probably better off without him anyway. I guess at the end of the day, I owe my very existence to him at the very least; I wish I knew where he came from though.

The book says he hailed from the state of Maine in the USA, and his people were from England. The Savage family came to England in the Norman conquest in 1066, before spreading to Ireland and Wales.

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Posted : 10 February, 2007 11:02 pm
chel OWC
(@chel-owc)
New Member

Tena Kourua
Thank you for this enjoyable korero.

My name is Nat Green, 'chel' to my friends, I am from Te Umupuia Marae of Ngai Tai and Ngati Tai at Te Wairoa (Clevedon), and I whakapapa also to Ngaitai at Torere through those historic marriages between Hauraki and Torere already spoken of.

I have some korero I hope you will also both find helpful.

Not to dismiss the accounts already told to you both, but what we have always been told is that Torerenuiarua was the daughter of Hoturoa by his younger wife Marama, rather than Whakaotirangi.

I also learnt last year from an aunty visiting from Torere that Torerenuiarua was considered the Puhi Ariki of Tainui waka, and just last week I copied down a whakapapa chart from Umupuia showing how Marama and Torere descend from a line of Puhi going back several generations prior to the departure from Hawaiki.

Te Paetahi's korero on Torerenuiarua fleeing from Tainui to escape unwelcome advances and settling at the place named after her etc is entirely in keeping with Ngaitai traditions as I understand them. There is also some slight variation in different versions I've heard of her exact course of travel from the waka to the place named after her. E.g. another version I read in a book by Taimoana Turoa based on Hauraki korero was that she swam ashore as the waka rounded Te Kaha, and that she then traveled overland; Pei Te Hurinui Jones also writes that this was shortly after the waka first made landfall at Whangaparaoa and then decided to move on finding the land already settled. From Torere however there's a much more elaborate and detailed korero about her swimming from the moana and making her way inland by entering the mouth of the stream now also called Torere, and this version mentions various places she stopped and rites she performed along the way that are commemorated by landmarks along the course of that stream and places nearby. I was also told that another name for her was Torerenui-a-Hotu, referring to Hoturoa.

There are also other layers and variations to the story about the origins of the name Ngai Tai. I have been told often that Tai is the eponymous ancestor of all Ngai Tai, but I also hear many other reasons cited for this name as well, and as far as I understand they are all tika and a part of the same korero.

For instance it is very often said that the names of Ngai Tai and Ngati Tai were both taken principally in reference to our arrival on Tainui waka. The arrival of Tainui is also stated as the reason for Torere's son having this name, and that the whanau and hapu of Torere and her son Tainui was once called Ngai Tainui during those generations prior to Tai himself.

Ngati Tai of Taamaki and Hauraki on the other hand were first established by Taihaua, and Taikehu who both arrived at Taamaki on Tainui to settle that part of the land, and so these were our earliest eponymous tupuna up here. Taihaua is the tupuna who appears in the well known whakapapa charts of Ngati Tai, while Taikehu is the one whose various deeds in claiming lands around the Taamaki River, Waitemataa, North Shore, Motutapu, Rangitoto and other islands of Tikapa Moana are most famous.

Whakapapa from Ngati Tai and Ngati Tai Manawaiti says also that Tai descended not only from Torere on his father's side but was the great great great Grandson of Taihaua of Ngati Tai on his mother's side. Hence his name and that of his descendants being the 'link' between both people. Taimanawaiti, ancestor of Ngati Tai Manawaiti was in turn a great-great Grandson of Tai.

Ngati Tai and Ngati Tai Manawaiti were the main names used in Taamaki and Hauraki up until we also became called Ngai Tai about 12 generations ago with the famous heke from Torere to Hauraki. All three names are still used in Taamaki now, as well as later names like Ngai Tai ki Taamaki and Ngai Tai ki Umupuia. So there are really numerous origins and references woven into the one name.

Re: Maxwells, my great great great Grandfather was Anaru Te Rira Makiwhara, the youngest son of the Pakeha Maori trader Thomas Maxwell and Umupuia chieftainess Te Ngeungeu. My branch of the Maxwell whanau (Anaru's descendants) are also known as the Beamish/Piimihi whanau as Anaru had only one child, Emere Rangitakotikino Beamish (nee Maxwell) hence Anaru was our whanau's last male tupuna to carry the Maxwell name. I understand that there is a Beamish connection to the Walkers of Napier as well.

The Maxwells still carrying that surname both from Torere and Umupuia, and also at Taranaki, are the numerous descendants of Anaru's tuakana Patariki Makiwhara, and there are also some families in Australia who descend from an elder brother of Patariki and Anaru, named James William Maxwell (the first). James' whanau had not been heard from by us since 1870 and recently returned to visit Umupuia last year thanks to their efforts to trace their links online, armed only with a handful of dimly-remembered stories they had been told as children by their grandparents and great grandparents.

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to set out the whakapapa in public for you showing all the links between these tupuna I've mentioned, as I am relatively young and often told that I must always seek consultation and direction of our acknowledged kaumatua before doing so. This was the express wish of the late kouroua Uncle Jim William Maxwell who passed on only recently, and my great grand aunty Rahera Ngeungeu Zister (nee Beamish) who had gone on ahead of him in 1997 when she was 103. This wish was publicly and emphatically stated by them both back in 1992 with the unanimous support of both Torere and Umupuia Marae from a hui held at Torere a short time earlier - that extreme caution must always be taken with Ngai Tai whakapapa, and that it should never be placed in public without following the required procedures set down by the kaumatua at this time. This came about due to a long and unfortunate history with unscrupulous authors etc misusing and twisting and distorting Ngai Tai whakapapa in various history books etc for their own pecuniary gain, which in turn had led to much confusion, contention, frustration and dislocation amongst later generations of our own whanau/whanui, and which has especially affected those without ready access to their own whanau records.

Re: the Maxwell/Poutu whanau of Ngapuhi and Ngati Porou... according to some older posts on this site 4 or 5 years ago, those whanau are descended from a Scots or English ancestor called Robert Maxwell who came out to Towai about the mid 1850s. He met Mereana Parihi from Wharekahika and they had one son Wi Poutu Maxwell from whom they are all descended. This Maxwell whanau from Ngapuhi to the best of my knowledge are not descendants of the same Makiwhara whanau of Umupuia and Torere. However, it is possible we are all still connected on the Pakeha side, if in fact Robert was related to our ancestor Thomas Maxwell. My understanding is that this connection is only a "theory" at this stage rather than any known whanau history, but if I am mistaken on any of the above then please excuse me as I've not heard much more about it since that time. I don't know if any such link has been successfully established yet, but I heard from some of our own whanaunga that there were people from both whanau who were researching together in the hopes of finding said link.

Te Paetahi, your ancestress Marama (the second, sister of Rongomaiteururangi), another version of the whakapapa which I was told at Umupuia, and I believe comes to us from Torere, is that she is the younger sibling, whilst the Ariki line comes down from Rongomaiteururangi. I was talking to Uncle Anaru Kingi on Saturday who is a Torere kaumatua representative on Umupuia's kaumatua council and trust board etc and we was quite certain about the Ariki line, so I thought I should mention it! 😉 I have a whakapapa chart copied from my great great aunty's family archives that shows this also.

The more recent generations you show descended from your ancestress Marama I am not very familiar with but I do recognise a handful of the better known names... no doubt this part of the whakapapa and koorero would be much better known to you through Whanau a Apanui than it is to me. I enjoyed reading your stories about your Ngai Tai tupuna, from both of you, and learning more about our connections to your Apanui Whanau, so again thank you both for that.

Allister I also stay in Hamilton and am only now beginning to explore more thoroughly my Waikato side. If you would like to catch up some time please feel free to get in touch n.green@ngaitai.maori.nz

I'm also currently acting as a kaitiaki for the Ngaitai website at www.ngaitai.maori.nz so please do drop by and have a korero.

nga mihi ki a kourua e nga whanaunga

na Nat

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Posted : 25 February, 2008 8:23 am
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