Welcome to the Whakapapa Club Forums where you will find a wealth of information.  You are free to browse the forums, but if you wish to comment or add requests, you must register, which is quick and easy and you can even use your Facebook Login.

Once you have signed up and posted either a reply or a new post it will not appear in the forums until it has been approved – this is to stop spam from appearing and keeping our Whakapapa Club Forums relavent for Whakapapa only.

If someone helps you don’t forget to acknowlege them.

Have some profound questions about the history of Maori  

Page 1 / 2
  RSS
papajoe OWC
(@papajoe-owc)
New Member

Hello, I need some information about some words I couldnt find in books or internet. Furhtermore I am keen on knowing much more about about the Kingitanga Movement. Maybe somebody could help me.

I would be really pleased cause I am translating two chapters of the book Penguin History of New Zealand (into German) written by Michael King which are telling about Maori Lifestyles, survive of the 18 and 19 century. If somebody knows this book or this author it would be nice to know much more about him.

Does he had a good reputation among Maori and Pakeha?

I am looking for the word: Hahi Ringatu which is related to the Kingitanga-Movement but I could find anything.

More question are:
How many Iwi or Hapu had been involved in this movement?

And which is the difference between Ariki, Upoko Runaka and Ringatira?

If somebody knows a source where I could find it (in English;-)) this would also help me a lot.

Quote
Posted : 30 September, 2006 1:31 am
hearty nati OWC
(@hearty-nati-owc)
Eminent Member

Hahi Ringatu means Church Of The Upraised Hand, in reference to the action made during prayers. It was founded during the 1860's by Te Kooti Te Turuki Arikirangi during his exile on Wharekauri/Rekohu.

Upon his return to Aotearoa, he and his believers fled inland and after his defeat at Patutahi they fled inland to Te Urewera.

After many months of evading the forces sent aginst him, Te Kooti fled to Te Rohe Potae o Te Kiingitanga and was given refuge.

This is the only link I can think of as the Ringatu church has never been widespread outside Te Urewera forest and the east coast.

And just a little comment for you papajoe, who are you to tell me what language to answer you? In the days of my grandparents, they were strapped for speaking their native tongue. Today, I am not strapped physically but verbally all around me. My language is a dying one, and I will never be denied using it as long as I live. It happened once, it will never happen again.

Ko toku reo he taonga kamehameha i tohaina mai ai e aku matua tipuna, e kauawhiawhi mai nei i a ahau i tona mana me tona rangatiratanga. He korowai whakakaupare ake i nga kinikini o te ao o te tonga e whakapehi mai nei i a tatau katoa. Kati, kia haumaruhia tonutia tatau ki nga matangi o te wahi ngaro.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30 September, 2006 5:43 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

Tena korua,

katahi au ka eke ake ki tenei wahi, a, ka kite au i te ingoa o tenei muka e iri ana i te wharangi tuatahi o tenei pae ipurangi. Ka puta te whakaaro me tomo atu au ki roto ki konei panui atu ai i te takapouwharanui nei.

He tika au na kupu e toku hoa no te rawhiti. Mena ka hinengaro tenei tauhou ki te mohio i te hitori o tenei motu, me matua ako e ia to tatou reo rangatira, ne?

No reira, ka huri nei au ki te korero mo te tino take o tenei kaupapa....

quote:


If somebody knows a source where I could find it (in English;-)) this would also help me a lot.


I am afraid to inform you, that information about Maori culture and history is best told with in the language, and this is done orally. Now, while I respect the fact that you are translator (and translation is a trade that I would like to get into) at the same time, I feel, that in order for you to get a clearer idea about what we are about, I suggest you take some te reo lessons firstly to help you understand the culture better (which can't be done through reading books on history and culture).

The subject that you are talking about also touches people quite deeply (especially in regards to the beloved Te Kooti).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30 September, 2006 9:31 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Tane why say "I am 'afraid to inform you'..." Your schooling in the English tongue and idiosyncrasies and upbringing in the English model is clearly ingrained in many of your comments.

You suggest papajoe takes some Te Reo lessons. Language is but a means of communication and those that speak the same language and even the same dialect, do not automatically understand or accept each other better or in a more tolerant way. I commend you for studying and picking up the tongue of your Maori ancestors. But even that language has changed over time. What my mother spoke with her mother and grandmother was different than what here father spoke and what I attempted to learn was many many words and meanings apart.

Look at the family unit worldwide and see where personal disagreements have led, let alone extended families, or internal and external issues in villages, towns, cities, areas, countries, different cultures etc.

what about the unspoken language... the lanugage of love and what I mean by this is ... whenever we meet another being although we may speak a different language we acknowledge this fact, respect the differences and can still walk together, eat together and some even lie together.

Tane you are a great example of a man who grasps Maoridom in the extreme. Now with age, when along with the ensuing years your knowledge matures and is more rounded and you count more grey hairs than the colour of your youth then, you will not only remember the mighty energy of youth but you will also know there are many ways to cast a net and sometimes leading by example is not the only way. Neither is expecting others to tred the same path we did.

We all reach the same end just as we all had a beginning. But how we live our life or how others view us is what makes the difference.

More important is what they remember after our death. At birth we were a clean slate, without independence and relied on others for our existance.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 12:54 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


Tane why say "I am 'afraid to inform you'..." Your schooling in the English tongue and idiosyncrasies and upbringing in the English model is clearly ingrained in many of your comments.


Really? I beg to differ! And I shan't be backing down on that!

quote:


You suggest papajoe takes some Te Reo lessons.


He whakaaro rangatira tena. Me whakaaro whena hoki koe.

quote:


Language is but a means of communication and those that speak the same language and even the same dialect, do not automatically understand or accept each other better or in a more tolerant way.


If you ask me, that's quite an English view on dialects.

quote:


I commend you for studying and picking up the tongue of your Maori ancestors.


How could I not know it when it is THE REO in my whanau.

quote:


But even that language has changed over time.


Of course languages change, but by comparing NZ Maori with other Pacific languages (such as Rapa Nui, Rarotongan, Tahitian, Hawai'ian etc etc) we see it hasn't changed that much over time (especially when compared to English).

quote:


What my mother spoke with her mother and grandmother was different than what here father spoke and what I attempted to learn was many many words and meanings apart.


Well, my nan would have something not very nice to say about that situation and in all honesty, she was raised with her nan who was born in the 1700's....

quote:


Tane you are a great example of a man who grasps Maoridom in the extreme.


Extreme? Hardly. I can think of plenty of people who grip things to the extreme. All I have is a view point as do you. It would be me like calling you the epitome of modernity.

quote:


what about the unspoken language... the lanugage of love and what I mean by this is ... whenever we meet another being although we may speak a different language we acknowledge this fact, respect the differences and can still walk together, eat together and some even lie together.


I'm not disputing that, all I said was that the best language to learn about Maori history and culture is te reo Maori. Which makes sense doesn't it? You don't go to learn Japanese to study Middle Eastern culture, do you? Well, the same principle applies here.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 2:32 pm
kuri OWC
(@kuri-owc)
Active Member

Kiaora

Papajoe I commend you for your effort in attempting to translate"English into German", however as you can see Maori have survived colonisation.

Those who are strong in Te Reo are the strength of our cultural future...I for one remember the strappings at school for speaking Maori...slowly over time I allowed myself to become linguistically assimilated. Hearty Nati never apologise in advance for your skill in Te Reo, I for one spend time clutching at the "parakai" from the language feast on offer at this site.

As you can see papajoe, we are a complex
people, and our "te reo" reflects this. Tane and Hearty give hope to the future with the passion with which they defend and use "te reo".

I give you all this analogy, there is more than one way to eat a fish, if cooking it; it is best over a low heat with a light hand. And so it is with good government and teaching.

I myself prefer mata ika.

regards

kuri

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 3:43 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora Tane,

I appreciate the format of your reply (very clear for the visually challeged). I suffer a stigmatism and the glare from the computer screen means I should lessen the use of this modern tool = less eye strain. However I should take time to spell check and have noticed a typing error in what I wrote above which you later responded to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What my mother spoke with her mother and grandmother was different than what here (SHOULD READ HER) father spoke and what I attempted to learn was many many words and meanings apart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tane's reply:
Well, my nan would have something not very nice to say about that situation and in all honesty, she was raised with her nan who was born in the 1700's....

Tane would you like to develop this reply or would my correction change your reply above?

From your post am I to understand you already wear the 'crown of greyheadness' for many many years? As we are in 2006 and you speak of your Nan's nan (1700's) to your generation that would be 5 generations over more than 300 years rather than say 5 generations over 150 years.

My people were not long livers. My father passed on at 42, his mother at 61 and his father at 52. On my mother's side her mother at 53 and her father at 63. The generation before passed on at 43 and 60 and the other side at 42 and 64. Before this was 30 and 73and the otherside not known yet

From you information your family looks blessed with good genes for living long lives.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 8:45 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Kuri can you confirm is mata ika raw fish or smoked fish?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 8:47 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Papajoe,

Before I leave the computer for the night for a long walk along the headlands with my dogs before it gets too dark I have reread your request and could you give readers of this forum the courtesy of giving us more info regarding your reason for translating chapters out of this book published by Penguin "History of NZ" by Michael King in the first place into German?

Are you a student writing a school or university report? Are you in NZ or Germany? Michael King book... I have not read any of this author's books? Is he the one who recently lost his life in a car accident?

Papajoe you use the subject title "Have some profound questions on Maori history?" I feel it is good you ask these type of questions above before you continueand mostly because you were at a impasse until Hearty Nati opened theway for you... However without this taonga from Nati do you have other sources material and references if this is but a part of your research?

I also note you have also posted in IWI, HAPU & MARAE a simmilar question there as you have here in TRACING TUPUNA. Papajoe there is a section for INFORMATION, QUESTIONS & REQUESTS which may be a more suitable forum for you to post in.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 9:16 pm
papajoe OWC
(@papajoe-owc)
New Member

Kiaora!

Thanks for the host of replies. I was in Nz for a half a year in 2005 but just for learning english. In this time I come into close contact with some Maori who really impressed and fascinated me. So I wanted to know much more about the culture and the history of Maori. Unfortunately its not very easy to find certain information about Maori (written in German or English) and I actually doubt that all the facts in this book of Michael King are really true.

Some QUestions of the users:

Question:Are you in NZ or Germany?
in Germany

Question:I have not read any of this author's books? Is he the one who recently lost his life in a car accident?
yes

Question:Are you a student writing a school or university report?
I am studying translation (english, german, spanish, arabic, french(a bit). To end up with my studys I need to translate 25 pages and other 25 about historical facts. So I decided to post in this forum.

If somebody is keen on reading some pages of this chapters, please contact me and I can send this document of about 25 pages.

Question: However without this taonga from Nati do you have other sources material and references if this is but a part of your research?

Until now I am using the internet. I am still looking for some scientific sources. For recomendations about english Books or maori Books(translated into english) you can contact me.

Thank you very much for this quick reply.

Haere Mai.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01 October, 2006 11:11 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


From your post am I to understand you already wear the 'crown of greyheadness' for many many years? As we are in 2006 and you speak of your Nan's nan (1700's) to your generation that would be 5 generations over more than 300 years rather than say 5 generations over 150 years.


This is exactly why don't let other people know my whakapapa. I said 1700's so that can span from 1700 - 1799 and in any one of those years my nans nan could still have been born. She lived for a very very very long time.

quote:


Papajoe you use the subject title "Have some profound questions on Maori history?" I feel it is good you ask these type of questions above before you continueand mostly because you were at a impasse until Hearty Nati opened theway for you... However without this taonga from Nati do you have other sources material and references if this is but a part of your research?


Did you read what Nati said? Papajoe is still at an impass -

quote:


And just a little comment for you papajoe, who are you to tell me what language to answer you? In the days of my grandparents, they were strapped for speaking their native tongue. Today, I am not strapped physically but verbally all around me. My language is a dying one, and I will never be denied using it as long as I live. It happened once, it will never happen again.

Ko toku reo he taonga kamehameha i tohaina mai ai e aku matua tipuna, e kauawhiawhi mai nei i a ahau i tona mana me tona rangatiratanga. He korowai whakakaupare ake i nga kinikini o te ao o te tonga e whakapehi mai nei i a tatau katoa. Kati, kia haumaruhia tonutia tatau ki nga matangi o te wahi ngaro.


I told Papajoe the truth - and as a translator, I know WHY the source language of a culture is always better than the target. I have a feeling you lack any expertise in translation?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02 October, 2006 7:59 am
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


Kuri can you confirm is mata ika raw fish or smoked fish?


Ma ngenei kupu tau uihanga e whakautu -

quote:


mata ika


ReplyQuote
Posted : 02 October, 2006 8:11 am
Hotutaua OWC
(@hotutaua-owc)
Active Member

The man asked a few question to fill his kite

Does he had a good reputation among Maori and Pakeha?

I am looking for the word: Hahi Ringatu which is related to the Kingitanga-Movement but I could find anything.

More question are:
How many Iwi or Hapu had been involved in this movement?

And which is the difference between Ariki, Upoko Runaka and Ringatira?

If somebody knows a source where I could find it (in English;-)) this would also help me a lot.

and all you maoris give him is What???

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02 October, 2006 11:39 am
Hotutaua OWC
(@hotutaua-owc)
Active Member

I know the book Penguin History of NZ and a little bit about the author Michael King, There is DVD out about his life and the countless years he spent with Maori and the many books he recorded in writing for Maori. He was very well respected amongst Kingitanga Movement. I can’t speak for any other Iwi or hapu of New Zealand, but Waikato and Ngati Maniapoto gave him the highest respect and honour of what he recorded and wrote of Kingitanga History and famous Waikato people.
I am looking for the word: Hahi Ringatu which is related to the Kingitanga-Movement but I could find anything.

Hahi Ringatu means Church Of The Upraised Hand, in reference to the action made during prayers. It was founded during the 1860's by Te Kooti Te Turuki Arikirangi during his exile on Wharekauri/Rekohu./posted by hearty nati. Wharekauri is the Maori name for Chatom Island.Upon his return to Aotearoa, he and his believers fled inland and after his defeat at Patutahi they fled inland to Te Urewera.
After many months of evading the forces sent against him, Te Kooti fled to Te Rohe Potae o Te Kiingitanga and was given refuge. This is the only link I can think of as the Ringatu church has never been widespread outside Te Urewera forest and the east coast.
To my knowledge hearty nati is correct that Ringatu Church and Kingitanga movement have no Common relationship but one important thing, they were both birthed by a vision of GOD. Te Kooti who was castrated with his people on the Chatom Island was given a vision from the arc Angel Gabriel; hence the religion Ringatu was born and is still a practicing religion to this day amongst Ngai Tuhoe Iwi and many marae around the Bay of Plenty. Part of this religion was reciting scriptures from books of the bible like the book of Psalm, Proverbs, Songs of Solomon and old Maori karakia. The symbol of the upright hand was a symbol of peace that shows “I have come with an empty hand, no weapon.” And as hearty nati writes: He was given sanctuary in the boundaries of Te Rohe Potae (rim of the hat) also known as the King Country by the Kingitanga movement. It was in this area Te Nehenehenui (Otorohanga and Te Kuiti) Te Kooti and his follows kept the revival of the Ringatu Church. They lived there for about 20 years until he was pardoned by the Colonial Government of that time. After 140 yrs the Ringatu and Kingitanga still live on.
If you build a house on a foundation of sand it will fall, if you build your house on a foundation of rock it will stand.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02 October, 2006 2:59 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Hotutaua, thanks enjoyed reading what you added to this forum. Your presentation of papajoes questions as just that something to put in his kete was read and understood. I am always interested to listen and learn.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02 October, 2006 3:16 pm
Page 1 / 2
Share: