Welcome to the Whakapapa Club Forums where you will find a wealth of information.  You are free to browse the forums, but if you wish to comment or add requests, you must register, which is quick and easy and you can even use your Facebook Login.

Once you have signed up and posted either a reply or a new post it will not appear in the forums until it has been approved – this is to stop spam from appearing and keeping our Whakapapa Club Forums relavent for Whakapapa only.

If someone helps you don’t forget to acknowlege them.

tracing Tupuna by using dna  

Page 1 / 5
  RSS
mariapia OWC
(@mariapia-owc)
Active Member

To all maoris out there...

I have posted a topic in finding Whanau and thank you all for your kind words and good advice. I am not alone!

Now I am asking all of you in here and please ask all your elders of your families this:

Why doesnt maori people like dna testing? I have read a lot of articuls on the net, I have seen some of the studies and research that has been done and from what I can understand maori people doesnt like dna testing, why is that? Is it something spiritual reason behind this? What do you think of dna research when it comes to maori and searching ancestry? What do elders think?

For my self, when I explain my background to people I feel like a liar telling them I am part maori ( white mother and maori father), I dont know anything about history, past and culture. It is almost like I am lost in space....living in Sweden where people have a very well documented background, here people can trace their ancesters back to year 1300 just by reading the church archives.

Maori people are so special and unique. From the very little knowledge I have gained I see an amazing people and it has to be protected and saved for the generations after us. In Sweden you are seen as a strong culture with an amazing history.

I feel like my ancesters are calling - my blood is calling and all I want to do is ask; How can I serve?

I am sorry - today I dont feel very strong. I thought the answer to my history would be in tracing by using dna - I dont think that anymore...It is not a search for a father - it is a search for my people

donna

Quote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 3:39 am
Huia bird
(@huia-bird)
Active Member

Kia ora Donna,

If i asked my elders that, they would probably say, "what for" or "don't be so stupid" or plain and simple, "you dont be digging up the dead"
We have nothing to prove by DNA. We dont need the proof. We already have our ways of preserving our heritage.

What you need to work on, is your belief in yourself and who you are.
Hearing that you feel your a liar and lost in space, Is a more important issue for you to focus on. (and cool to hear you have more or less said this in you last paragraph) 🙂

As for you ancestors calling? Id say with without a doubt they are.... but more as a guide. And they will guide you in where you shall serve. (not us).

Its an amazing journey! and one you are taking right now, with so much confusions and obstacles, but its all worth it! Feeling the closeness and embrace of your Ancestors as you walk through life, And know who you are!!! YEAH 🙂

Aroha Bay"

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 10:44 am
tane_toarangatira OWC
(@tane_toarangatira-owc)
New Member

Kia ora Donna,

'DNA hmmmm, from my own world view, we as Maori people have had many resources of our traditional cultural taonga being exploited, sold, stolen commercialized, advertised on other cultural products "dna is no different" with genetic engineering experimenting on animals, who knows where our dna could end up....?

We as Maaori people know where we stem from, as for you, this journey of rediscovery is exhilarating, exciting, and amazing to have your taha maoritanga be awoken from it's slumber. From all the researching of your whakapapa,always remember 'this' you will neva be alone
for "you are a seed of Rangiatea"

naku noa Tane_toarangatira

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 11:28 am
tane_toarangatira OWC
(@tane_toarangatira-owc)
New Member

Kia ora Donna,

'DNA hmmmm, from my own world view, we as Maori people have had many resources of our traditional cultural taonga being exploited, sold, stolen commercialized, advertised on other cultural products "dna is no different" with genetic engineering experimenting on animals, who knows where our dna could end up....?

We as Maaori people know where we stem from, as for you, this journey of rediscovery is exhilarating, exciting, and amazing to have your taha maoritanga be awoken from it's slumber. From all the researching of your whakapapa,always remember 'this' you will neva be alone
for "you are a seed of Rangiatea"

so from me 'DNA'is definitely a no! no!

naku noa Tane_toarangatira

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 11:37 am
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

Kia Ora Donna,

I am in such a privileged position to be able to access my own whakapapa(genealogy) at a whim. I understand how "frustrating" this search for your tupuna is in that you have virtually no information outside of "you're Maori".

If it is of any comfort, or alarm, 1 out of 6 Maori do not know their tribal affiliations (and therefore their whakapapa). That is approximately 100,000 people. So you're not alone on this struggle, this amazing journey you're undertaking.

There are many reasons why Maori have not submitted dna. For me personally, blood is tapu (sacred). And so, it is something that I wouldn't hand over so easily to another person who I don't know and that I can't trust. As tane_toarangatira said, there is also a possibility that the dna could be exploited and used in ways that we would not agree to.

Have you managed to get any more info from your mother?

Naku noa na Tane

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 2:33 pm
mariapia OWC
(@mariapia-owc)
Active Member

Thank you all for your reply!

I think my mother will get her letter at the end of the week, it takes about 5-6 days from Sweden.

I respect all of you for your belives, this is what keeps us grounded.

My view of these things are that LIFE is tapu, History is tapu, culture is tapu and what kind of legacy we give our children is tapu.

I am a blood donor, and also a bone marrow donor due to mu unsusall dna structre up hear in Sweden.

I feel priviliged that you would share your belifes with me

donna

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 5:07 pm
interplanetjanet
(@interplanetjanet)
Eminent Member

Tean koe.....ahhhh a subject close to my heart....while Maori are low on the register as Blood or organ donors due in part to some of what is written above, I think there is also fear of the unknown and a perception of pain- plus ignorance over what is required and why.Maori however are not slow at becoming recipients of other peoples generous donations and are high in terms of those requiring blood transfusions and organs. There is a definite imbalance in that picture...we can take but we cannot give!
The subjects come up before as I have advocated for more people to consider becoming both blood and organ donors. We had a case about 18 months ago where myself in Germany and another of Maori descent in the UK were the only suitable donors found for a young teenager in the Waikato region...there would certainly have been others within NZ but no it had to come from this side of the world...those of you who are healthy and have had no history of cancer etc should ask yourselves why you are not donors...and if any of your loved ones required blood or organs are you going to refuse to accept someone elses generous gift due to those same reasons?
DNA is one of those areas which is expanding globally as many countries now believe it to hold the key to solving serious crimes...it will happen its simply when for NZ.
I sympathise with cases like yours Donna ..it is not easy for you and your child to look Maori while living within a predominantly Nordic looking enviroment..its akin to an english rose blooming in the dessert, in contrast.
When that feeling goes beyond what you see in the mirror and makes you feel you are incomplete...who can blame you for wanting to use every means at your disposal to try and fill the gaps. While we may not be able to establish anything yet through NZs poor DNA databank we could perhaps ask this site for an 'Adoption / Whangied / Fostered' thread within the Forum for people like you who are searching for their lost connections or even for the birth parents or their families to register dates of birth and place of children they wish to make contact with
If we do that I would suggest we dont include all details ..there would have to be some detail withheld that was known to only both parties -like hospital where birth occurred..just a thought
kia ora

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 6:45 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

Kia Ora tatou,

I know this is going rapidly off topic but this seems to be the flow of the discussion.

With regards to organ donations...it is my understanding that even if the patient receives the required organ they have to take drugs to surpress their immune system because the immune system will attack any foreign bodies it detects (i.e. the donated organ).

So that comes down to a question of quality of life. DO you want to prolong life but have to take a whole load of drugs or would you rather lead a high quality of life (i.e. drug free, the ability to move around with great independence etc etc)?

Naturally people opt to preserve their life (even though the quality of that life will decrease). Very few will reject the option to preserve their life.

Now, the reason why blood is classed as tapu is because it is tapu, that is, it is not a safe substance to handle. Blood outside of the body can transmit diseases. So, even with the latest and greatest advancements in blood screening there is always the risk that some tainted blood might get through the screening process.

Also, as tane_toarangatira said, there is no guarantee that the blood will be used for the purpose it was intended for with genetic engineering and the fact that one can not screen out unethical scientists or unethical pharmaceutical companies.

What would be a great advancement in medical science, is the ability to formulate synthetic blood that can be administered safely.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 8:10 pm
interplanetjanet
(@interplanetjanet)
Eminent Member

yes tane you are correct there is a resistance which occurs in organs transplant, bonemarrow etc which is referred to medically as 'host versus graft' Medication to decrease this is a part of therapy, side effects are usually minor in comparrison to the orginal complaint which lead to a life saving transplant being required
I could handle the line of defence over what risks are involved with blood collection and use if the same principles were applied to sperm..
You only need to read
our forums threads relating to searches for parental identity to ascertain the same thought and care was not taken over the spilling of what should have been sacred seed and its consquences...I believe thats inconsistant with the stance taken over blood and organs...talk about double standards!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 8:29 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


and use if the same principles were applied to sperm..


I agree. Some men shouldn't spill their sperm so freely but they do. How can we combat to stop that? It starts in the home with the principles and morals taught there and then it carries over into the schools - it is their responsibility to inform students of making appropriate choices i.e. its ok to abstain, use contraceptives if available and teach them how to respond appropriately to their hormones.

quote:


You only need to read our forums threads relating to searches for parental identity to ascertain the same thought and care was not taken over the spilling of what should have been sacred seed and its consquences...I believe thats inconsistant with the stance taken over blood and organs...talk about double standards!


When I was talking about the tapu of the blood I said "For me personally" because I know very well not everyone is on the same page when it comes to tikanga whether that tikanga is a personal one or an iwi wide one. Sperm too is tapu. However your argument about inconsistency here doesn't apply because a) I believe both toto and sperm is tapu b) there is no reason to suggest that the thread starter's father has acted inappropriately and c) inconsistency is not the problem hypocrisy is the problem and that hypocrisy if it exists does not pertain exclusively to this kaupapa alone.

The thread starter came here and asked a patai and a very good patai. I know this kaupapa of blood donating and organ donating is close to your ngakau. However, remembering that you mentioned a program that you had seen about indigenous peoples losing their identities I find it inconsistent that its sad for an indigenous group of people to lose their practices and beliefs yet when it comes to Maori the games on to change our practices and beliefs.

I say this because blood donating, organ donating (and the acceptance of) challenges Maori notions of whakapapa and mana whenua. Now if we change those notions to match those of non-Maori are we not losing a part of our unique identity as Maori?

Edited by - tane_ariki on Mar 06 2008 9:13:31 PM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 9:10 pm
mariapia OWC
(@mariapia-owc)
Active Member

What a great discussion!

You have all valid reasons for your own belife, I have the out most respect for that as I hope you have towards me for being a donor.

Please remember that I have not any knowledge in maori history. The story about when the white people came to NZ, I know nothing and therefore dont understan - yet! If you have any advice on how to receive this knowledge I would be happy if you would post it to me.

There are so many aspects of blood; spirutal, medical and historical data. I am not asking for a blood donation...I am asking for a dna donation, a mouth swab. That is a total different view...I wouldnt think twice in donating blood in order to save and help another person.

I have spoken to my friends here in Sweden and they all find this so interesting. They feel that the maori legacy MUST be protected and saved. It is the same thing with the swedish native people called SAMER. We have to save this knowledge and history, we are in great need to protect all native people. How do we do it? How do we proceed? What is the next step?

Maybe I am to modern? Indigenous people have to adopt to certain rules in order to servive and maybe there is the issue? How do we adopt and stay loyal? How do we get forward and not loosing our history? How do we get ahead without forgetting? I am certain that this is why the National Geographic has this big dna project that serves for a period of 5 yrs. My son and I are now entering this project in order to give some insight and more knowledge to the generations after us.

I belive that education is the key - with that we can communicate and get the knowledge in order to serve and protect our legacy.

Thank you for being open and honest about these important things.

Donna

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 9:52 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

Tena koe Mariapia,

quote:


Please remember that I have not any knowledge in maori history. The story about when the white people came to NZ, I know nothing and therefore dont understan - yet! If you have any advice on how to receive this knowledge I would be happy if you would post it to me.


Kei te pai - its ok. Probably the best place to start would be with Dr. Ranginui Walker's Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou - Struggle Without End. It is comprehensive and very easy to read. You might be able to order it through Borders if you'd like a copy to keep or it may be found in your local library in the English language section.

quote:


Indigenous people have to adopt to certain rules in order to servive and maybe there is the issue? How do we adopt and stay loyal? How do we get forward and not loosing our history? How do we get ahead without forgetting?


Those questions are quite pertinent. How does one be Maori in a world that comes across as being non-Maori? And if that world wants us to become non-Maori as them how do we respond? Yes these are very pertinent questions.

quote:


My son and I are now entering this project in order to give some insight and more knowledge to the generations after us.


Kia ora korua.

I'd just like to ask, is English your first/dominant language or is Swedish?

I pray that you find your genealogy sooner and not later,

Naku noa na Tane

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 10:07 pm
mariapia OWC
(@mariapia-owc)
Active Member

Well I was born in Sydney Australia 1970 but we moved to Sweden 1975...

Thank you and yes I will find my genealogy one day, I wont rest until I have done it! This is my legacy to my son.

donna

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 10:39 pm
interplanetjanet
(@interplanetjanet)
Eminent Member

Kia ora Donna.. I am wondering if your 'Samer' and those we know of as 'Sami' are one and the same people?
It is good to be aware of other cultural norms.

In reply to your points raised tane ariki I concede & have no probelm in regards to what you preceive as my own double standards although if you were familiar with my early posts from when the Forum first started untill now you would know I have and always will be a consistant advocate of preservation of cultural history & identity or knowledge, as it existed before Europeon influence, and I have always been quite open about the fact I dont neccessarily see this as always being a preservation of a living history...'some things' have to evolve in order to stay in step with the times
Im afraid it galls me no end when I see the amount of our own people who want to receive these gifts but hide behind cultural sensitivity labels when it comes to giving. If you cant give you shouldnt ask to receive.Organs, blood etc are also precious to those who donate.
Donna is quite correct in saying the DNA required for genetic matches is as simple as a swab (simply a large cotton bud) being applied to the inside of your mouths gum..less painful than cleaning your ears and obviously not sacred too many when you watch how many are keen on spitting onto pavements...
I have heard some who have adopted children out say they fear what they may want of them...and their children whom they kept fear the adopted one may be entitled to a share of a parents assets ( if any)...not really relevant when we talk of being called by ancestors to reclaim our birthrites...
There are some things which can and should remain stagnant and others which should evolve along with the times. My concerns over preservation are more that all known history be recorded, as to how it was, so that we always have a point of unadulterated reference at our disposal.
kia ora

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 10:44 pm
Huia bird
(@huia-bird)
Active Member

I saw on sky channel CI, (today of all days) This is for real.....They have a new break through. They can actually determine the race and how much percentage of which race we each carry!!

With this new break through they proved that the man they were looking for in a murder investigation was 3/4 African & 1/4 Native American.. Did anyone else see this?? It was quite amazing..............It will probably be out in use within the next 10-15 years.

And yes folks......... thats where your DNA will really end up on file... "police data base"

Not genealogy "preservation"

As we are GOVT controlled remember!!

So I say Nay to DNA!!

My real reason for this is, I see the strength and pride in our young ones, and in growing numbers! they are doing the journey of discovery. And its a long journey. And every thing they find, they respect, because it wasn't just handed to them. They searched.
They meet whanau and get to bond with them whilst on their search. And that is an important part of the whole process.
Also today i was contacted by a young cuzzie i never knew i had until today.. He is researching his Whakapapa. He was blown away when i mailed him back with "kia ora cuz" and so was I.

I wouldnt want to lose that part of who we are, by opting for DNA.

🙂

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06 March, 2008 11:02 pm
Page 1 / 5
Share: