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He Patai - Maori Land  

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Purerehua OWC
(@purerehua-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora Koutou,
Hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question. Could someone please tell me the reason land is consolidated? As I understand it, an application is submitted to the MLC to do this. Can this only be done by a trust or can an individual apply?

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Posted : 24 April, 2007 11:07 am
kiriwai
(@kiriwai)
Active Member

The Court may, when satisfied that two or more areas of Maori freehold land can be more conveniently worked together, make an amalgamation order whereby the common ownership of the land is brought together under one title comprising the whole of the lands concerned. An amalgamation order can affect the status of lands concerned, since if any one section of the lands to be amalgamated holds the status of Maori freehold land, then upon amalgamation the status of other lands included in the order shall acquire that status also. The shares of the respective owners in any lands, the subject of the amalgamation order, are calculated on the basis of the value of their interest in the former titles.
Hope this is of some help to you.

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Posted : 24 April, 2007 1:41 pm
Purerehua OWC
(@purerehua-owc)
Active Member

Also, for what reason(s) would the status of land be changed (eg from Maori Land to General Land?

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Posted : 24 April, 2007 6:02 pm
kiriwai
(@kiriwai)
Active Member

Changing from Maori land to General land makes it easier for owners to sell their shares, to whom they want too, whereas under Maori, you can only gift it to other shareholders.

kia ora

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Posted : 24 April, 2007 7:28 pm
Purerehua OWC
(@purerehua-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora for the reply Kiriwai,
Gasp, cough, splutter.... sell?? what the?

Re: consolidation of blocks does that mean that the existing titles of land would cease to exist post consolidation or perhaps get say... phased out in future?
I think I'm still a little confused about the actual reason for consolidation of titles. For example if someone had interests in three small blocks of land and those blocks were consolidation with five other larger blocks next to it (in which they had no interest) wouldnt they then have interests in the entire lands?

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Posted : 24 April, 2007 8:15 pm
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora Purerehua

Changing maori freehold land to general can also be done to allow a mortgage to be taken out on maori land.

Under current law, you cannot mortgage land that is under the status of Maori Freehold land. Why would you want to? Well we did it 30 years ago to drain the swampy area's of our farm block and leased it to farmers in order to service the mortgage.

However it is again freehold now and we are considering changing it back, again something that can be done.

Title consolidation sounds to me like a process designed to counter fragmentation of land shares. However, the scenario you mentioned, somehow does not make sense.

3 small blocks consolidated with 5 larger blocks? That is not possible. The 5 larger blocks would need to be purchased or gifted in order for them to be included with the 3 smaller blocks, or vice versa ie purchased or gifted 3 smaller blocks by the owners of the 5 larger blocks.

It is inconceivable that it could be done anyother way. If it was purchased or gifted, then yes your shares in the 3 maller blocks will be proportional to your new shares in the larger blocks.

A quick phone call to the maori land court should clear all this up for you as you can also cite the landblock numbers so that they no precisely what the circumstances are surrounding the land in question.

Good luck.

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Posted : 26 April, 2007 5:06 pm
Aubry OWC
(@aubry-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora, I am interested in this topic as I am currently succeeding my mother and siblings to their Grandmothers land. They have already succeeded to her, however not all land was identified so for the past 44 years the blocks have been left sitting (absolute)in her name. They went through the family lawyer who was settling their Mothers Estate. He only identified and succeeded to 5 Blocks back in 1991, based on his title searches his firm did. Due to modern technology, and the posts on this site we have since found 55 other blocks to succeed to. Only today I have been dealing with MLC because one block is targeted to be consolidated, without the owners being notified. I got 4 different explanations of what this meant. I ended up being more confused. MLOL & MAori .Org has saved me heaps of research time now, and the whakapapa that comes from it.... We have found a family from my Gt Grandmothers Brother (He died in WWI) and no one knew of his descendants until this week. We had never met as families before. Thanks to all those who regularly contribute to this site... Kia Ora Kiriwai, I now know how we relate .....

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Posted : 26 April, 2007 9:17 pm
kiriwai
(@kiriwai)
Active Member

Kia Ora Aubry and Matahuru and to Purerehua
Aubry, contact the MLC and ask them to do a (PART 4 SEARCH)under your Mums name for you, if you haven't done so already, its very interesting to see what they come up with, you will get the names of all the BLOCKS that your Mum had shares in as well as all the names of the TRUSTEES, plus other info. I am in the process of doing our application for our Whanau Trust, alot of work.

Sorry Purerehua that I didn't really get into answering your question fully.

I like what you have written, Matahuru very interesting.

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Posted : 26 April, 2007 11:38 pm
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

Very interesting topic... will have me ferreting into the MLOL tomes once more. Kia Ora for this information.

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 4:11 am
ngati_kuri@hotmail.com OWC
(@ngati_kurihotmail-com-owc)
Eminent Member

I have a question or two you maybe able to guide me on?

1. If you have seen Minute book transcripts that contain land exchanges done on tupuna lands by those that took on the role as trustees for minors for instance and it now clearly shows the exchanges were not the most beneficial for the minors but for others... can they be challenged even 82 years on?
2. If tupuna lands (previously designated by Pakeha as uneconomical) got swallowed up (no longer individual lots but become a consolidated lot/s) and these were later applied for by another entirely different family name... can this be challenged also?
3. When land you know your tupuna had an interest in (copies of previous paperwork) now comes up with a search under a trust group or say an Incorporation (no matter who forms or auspices them) and you can't get any straight answers as to why and who gave permission and where is their proof, can this be challenged and if the answer is yes to all these questions and the place to go is the MLC how does one start... to correct the anomalies of the past so one can stand on ALL of ones turangawaewae as Aubry's whanau are now doing both on paper and in physical terms (from 5 blocks to 44 other blocks)!!
Te hei Mauriora whanaunga.

Also to Matahuru, thanks for the clear reasoning on whether our tupuna lands should be Maori freehold or general title and the benefits to switch between the two for whanau from time to time and how to choose when and why to change and/or revert the titles. Is the Council rates the same for either??

Apologies for previous typos - too late/early in the wee hours for a clear head.

Edited by - ngati_kuri@hotmail.com on Apr 27 2007 7:14:02 PM

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 4:29 am
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora ngati kuri

1) If it can be proved beyong reasonable doubt then I do not see why not.

2) Definitely yes. However again the burden of proof is on you yet it shouldnt be too hard to prove. You will need to research beck to the very first time this whenua was issued a title. Depending on which area you are in, you should be looking around the late 19th century.

Go to the land court armed with all the information you have on the whenua. At this stage you are only gathering information. Ask to see the records relating to that block (need block number or name of definite shareholder and area)

The MLC (Maori Land Court) should have documents pertaining to any transactions regarding any particular land block ie partition orders, succession orders etc. Somewhere amongst that data should be a copy of the deed and the original shareholders list.

Now this is the hard part, one or many of the documents contained in these records should reference a minute book with the details of how the land came into the possession of your tupuna. War, gift, whatever..it should be there somewhere.

Now when you find that, including the date of the issue of title, and the original shareholders list, then you are able to trace ownership back from there in an unbroken line of whakapapa.

Careful though, the family that you say should not have received any land might have legitimate claim through an ancestor you did not know about which has been known to happen. However if not, then you will have you proof.

3) You may not as yet be able to challenge the trust since you do not yet know any skulduggery has taken place. The fact that no-one wants to talk to you tends to suggest you may be right however again you will need to do some research. As a shareholder you have some inalienable rights yet the power of the trustee can be all powerful if left to long with out checks and balances.

Refer to section 2) and repeat those steps to find information of Trust orders, resolutions etc. All you need is those land block numbers, and your tupuna name.

Kia ora e kuri let me know how it goes ok.

Cheers

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 11:04 am
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Oh and as for council rates that is a slightly different issue.

If the land is being used for economic purposes it is legally obliged to pay rates at market value however if it is a papakainga and the area is less than 5 acres (I think it s 5 acres) then it can be exempt.

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 11:09 am
Aubry OWC
(@aubry-owc)
Active Member

Thanks Kiriwai, just to add to comments, My ancestor was a minor up to 1909, then when he went to succeed to his land, he was told by his "Trustee" that certain lands were sold as uneconomical, and all money spent on his behalf??. I discovered this week that the trustee had actually gifted the land to her own son, and they live on it till this day..hmmmm, also, today I find that not only is my GtGd Nan still got interest in Maori land, but also in General Land transferred in 1960 by Local council, but told no one, confirmed today that it is still in her name, not bad considering she died in 1925, I never thought to check interest in General Land

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 4:59 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

Yes, research the whakapapa.

I know on my nan's side the land was taken from her. But through extra research, we found out that on the Hauraki side (nan was Waikato), we actually were awarded land by the Maori Land Court in our nan's rohe through whakapapa back to my nan's tupuna's sister (this was a three way whakapapa connection between Ngati Whanaunga, Ngati Paoa and Ngati Apakura).

My cousin's have seen the land, camped on it, and we know its ours through the grandfather (who was the result of the Ngati Whanaunga ~ Paoa ~ Apakura connection).

Sometimes you need to think outside the square. I do know that Ngati Whanaunga and Ngati Paoa did contest for land in the Waikato region (as they had legitimate rights) so it pays to look up your iwi and hapu and check every single claim made and where those claims are made. Even if it might look weird be today's understandings of iwi boundaries, whakapapa rights can not be extinguished so easily...

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Posted : 27 April, 2007 7:44 pm
Nani OWC
(@nani-owc)
Eminent Member

Ngā mihi ki a koutou mo ngā taonga tuku iho mai i to tātou tūpuna.
This is such an important kaupapa for our people for our us & our uri after us. A huge mihi to you guys. If I may add to this please. You have to plug away at MLC office who are working on your behalf because if they can they will give excuses & put you onto another MLC office. I had to battle for some success over some years because my mothers land interests were small but here & there in Te Wai Pounamu & the Hauraki. My father's land interests are another matter.
It takes a lot of time research & money to set up a Whānau Trust, I did it with the help of a MLC officer, but its worth it.
You are obliged by the court to hold meetings with the presence of a MLC court officer. I had a hui with 2 of my siblings on Sunday without an officer's presence as we havent had a hui for a while. My other 2 siblings live in Tassy & Perth. Hope this is an added help to our kete matauranga/basket of knowledge.

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Posted : 24 May, 2007 9:08 am
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