Welcome to the Whakapapa Club Forums where you will find a wealth of information.  You are free to browse the forums, but if you wish to comment or add requests, you must register, which is quick and easy and you can even use your Facebook Login.

Once you have signed up and posted either a reply or a new post it will not appear in the forums until it has been approved – this is to stop spam from appearing and keeping our Whakapapa Club Forums relavent for Whakapapa only.

If someone helps you don’t forget to acknowlege them.

HELP MAORI LAND QUESTIONS  

Page 1 / 2
  RSS
mkahui OWC
(@mkahui-owc)
Active Member

Kia Ora Whanau,
Does any one know what shares mean in Maori Land courts, I went on the website the other day and when I serach for my mums land I found there was a lot of owners for this block of land with x amount of shares oer owner,because there is so many owners does that mean I can not move on to the land to built cause my mum does not solely own this block?
Any help would be apprecoated.

Cheers

Quote
Posted : 09 December, 2006 9:43 pm
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

Afraid so! whenever beneficaries, shareholders succeeded to their shares, you cannot live or built on the land where the interests come from businesses that lease your blocks. I'm wondering if you know these maori land trusts has full power and control over shareholders? and if you are thinking of builting on your mum block think again, these land trust have the right served you penalty notice.
Trust me I know. My grandparents did the same you asking.

I never forgotten I was 15 yrs old both been mislead by maori land trust (won't mention name) for their consent.
Grandparents didn't understand why they bribe them into money, didn't know to read and write. Trust wouldn't allow me nosy at paper.
Anyway, thry couldn't afford solicitor.

I am given the power of attorney by wills to both their shares, and no ones cannot contest the will either. It was stand by te ture te whenua maori land act 1993.
Oh, Grandmother wons the trifecta to pay for her solicitor fees before her death 1992. Both died.
hmm... succeed, incorporated, alienation hmmm......

Guess what! I won't let them take the power over my grandparents land. Never forgotten maori land trusts ripped them off. I'm waiting for when the leases up, hmm....give it back to the rightful crown land owner to get his/her consent. Actually, I would love to know what gonna happens when the lease up.
Who knows could be more pressure on the govt.
Just sick of the maori land trust craps anymore!

I think some may disagree my post reply not making the right choice to succeed. Arohamai!

Edited by - pono on Dec 10 2006 02:38:21 AM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10 December, 2006 2:27 am
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora mkahui

You are able to build on land under multiple ownership. The process goes something like this.

Your share we will call 'x' is calculated against the total number of shares in the block. We will call the total shares 'y'. So y / x = z, 'z' being your portion of the total shares 'y'.

Now 'z' or your share of total shares, must be converted to a percentage. For example.

Your share 'X' = 1.5
Total share 'Y' = 50.0

Y / X = (50.0 / 1.5)
= 33.333 or 'z'

Convert 'z' to a percentage

100/33.333 = 3%

Now you know that your share of the total share is 3% or 'a'

From there you just take the value or area of the land to calculate how much of it belongs to you. Eg.

b = area of the land

b = 100 acres

Your entitlement(c) under the share system is:

(b x a )/100 = c

or 100 acres times 3%, divided by 100 (percentage correction) = 3 acres.

I know its a little tough to get your head around but it is basic mathematics/algebra.

Once you have calculated what percentage of the total land area is yours, you must then survey the area you want to cut out, then apply for a partition order from the Maori land court.

This involves the submission of the application before a shareholders meeting to approve of the section proposed. I think you must have more than half of the shareholders agreement before it is allowed. The trustees have an ethical duty to execute the wishes of the shareholders, however as stated above, the are not legally bound to do so.

If you like I could calculate the numbers for you and let you know how much you are entitled to in land holdings.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Edited by - matahuru on Dec 11 2006 12:03:42 PM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11 December, 2006 11:23 am
Tiaki_nohi OWC
(@tiaki_nohi-owc)
Active Member

Ehoa, i think i need a uni degree to understand all that stuff (a x b /100 = c ). I'll just sit back on all my shares and let my sister explain it all to me. But i agree with Pono in a lot of ways. Somes shares are so small they are really worthless, except for the fact that you can say that you legally own some of you ancestral land that your kaumatua's fought and died for.
Jeez i'm getting a bit carried away now. Got an appointment with a big bowl of kanga wai that my aussie missus makes me eat outside. 🙂
Cheers People

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11 December, 2006 1:13 pm
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

tena koe

I don't understand maths algebra!

Having amount of hectares written on land paper looks like more to us. Does this matter? I don't think so!who knows!

I wonder if matahuru want to do this maths! lol
convert to percentage of my grandmother's block

eg: Block share/area - shares 203000, area 41.0723 ha and ownership shares/ratio 2.1783928600

Edited by - pono on Dec 11 2006 2:47:21 PM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11 December, 2006 2:45 pm
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora korua.

Yes looking back at it now it does look a little daunting but it really is quite easy. I actually write software programs so do you think a calculation program would be of any value to Maori?

Any way yes pono we can run those numbers through.

Your share = 2.1783928600 (b)
Total Shares = 203000 (a)

Convert to Percentage
a/b = c
203000/2.17839286 = 93187.966104 (c)

100/c = 0.001073%

percentage = 0.001073

Area Calculation

(0.001073% x 41.0723ha) /100 = 0.0004407

Your land interest is: 0.0004407 of an hectare?. Anyway let me check the how many suare meters in a hectare because the share is going to be a lot smaller than a hectare.

Cheers

Edited by - matahuru on Dec 13 2006 04:58:32 AM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 December, 2006 8:56 am
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora

Your area is 4.407 meters square. About enough to put a good sized garden shed on. But hey! its dirt right..and your dirt at that!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 December, 2006 9:02 am
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

tena koe matahuru

Its a hectare!
So, how many amount of acres?
Still not sure whats the true percentage is? 0.001073% or ?

Is this worth succeed to this piece of dirt! Wow, won't belong probably down to nothing left from this block really!

Anyway, hope this thread will be any useful
kia ora matahuru much appreciate for that.

Edited by - pono on Dec 12 2006 11:36:09 AM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 December, 2006 11:31 am
kuri OWC
(@kuri-owc)
Active Member

tena koe;

I succeeded to my mothers land interests, after she died in 1992, but hey Te Ture Whenua Act came in 1993 my mother had left her share wholly to me, to prevent the further fractionalizing of our land, so even though she left a will that pre dated the "act" and written by a lawyer from "the Maori Trust" back in the 70s' her will was overturned, and I now wish I had enough room for a deck chair.

The motivation for all this fractionalising as far as I can tell is to so dilute the shareholdings that maori will have no room to stand; and lose interest in defending such small interests.

Also, I don't agree with the leasing arrangements either; where you compensate tenants for making "improvements"...this is such a colonial viewpoint as though the land was in a state of degradation prior to the "Treaty". There has been more degradation due to "scientific agricultural practices" and so called "development" and who exactly brought in the feral animals and "exotic weeds"... this is never factored into those so called reconciliation efforts aand insulting treaty compensation packages.

I even considered vesting my interests in the name of the hapu, but the "Act" ensures that I cannot gift this interest outside the whanau.

The only piece of maori land that I can ever utilise is up at the urupa, and even that could end up in a legal dispute in the fullness of time.

Don't drink and drive over Xmas, there is only so much good cheer before it all turns to tears, aye?

Edited by - kuri on Dec 12 2006 1:15:37 PM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 December, 2006 12:55 pm
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora pono

I have converted to square meters because the total area that you own is considerably less than an acre also.

If you do not know how much 4.407 square meters is try walking 4 and a half good steps in one direction, then imagine a square whose 4 sides are that long. Its not much, as I said, enough for a good sized garden shed.

I also agree with you kuri when you say that it seems all avenues to do anything significant with the land are blocked by the Te Ture whenua act, but there are ways around it, the only problem is all shareholders must agree and of course, so do the trustees.

In a way that pretty much closes that avenue too since you know as well as I do, agreement amongst whanau is difficult at the best of times let alone when it concerns land.

You can vest the interests in a whanau trust alonng with anyone else that wishes to do so, which can later be transferred anywhere you decide is appropriate.

Just a couple of tips. Hope it helps.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 December, 2006 8:20 am
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

Sovereignty maori laws uses TE TURE WHENUA MAORI LAND ACTS 1993.
This laws book that I have.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 December, 2006 9:20 pm
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

kia ora matahuru

Thank-you for the calculation.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 December, 2006 9:22 pm
pono OWC
(@pono-owc)
Eminent Member

kia ora kuri

Could this be the reason your mother's will was overturned probably she hasn't renew her will every 5 years. Then again, you've applied for succession to your mother shares given the land trusts the power of the attorney to the land or block interests.

Edited by - pono on Dec 13 2006 10:40:15 PM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 December, 2006 9:45 pm
kuri OWC
(@kuri-owc)
Active Member

Kia ora Pono;

Apparently someone "mysteriously" shredded all her documents at her solicitor a week before she died, a lot of strange things happened "someone" within the "whanau" collected rent on her freehold house out while she was staying up North on another piece of land.

Think about this has a lawyer ever asked you for id, when you make out a will? No it is presumed, and taken on good faith...it is illegal to destroy legal papers like wills held in trust by law firms... but how do you prove they had the papers once they are destroyed?

So when it came down to it, my mother died on the morning that she made the appointment to make a new will... so we waste a few thousand dollars to get letters of administration drawn up, and surprise, surprise, the old will at the Maori Trust turns up...then the day before the grant of Probate certain "whanau" halt the probate proceedings cause they feel that "this little so and so is going to sell all the maori land." (We all know how hard that would be.)

Now we have smashed the land apart some are in "whanau trust"...how could you trust whanau who sold their own mother out in her last days?

Her freehold house is being administered by "whanau trust"..which is illegal under the Te Ture Whenua Act 1993. The whanau trust is operating only on draft papers and doesn't claim trust tax rates on the income from the property(I wonder why?) I'm still stuck up to my neck in it because I refuse to be a part of the "trust" because I have a 20% share in a house that has materially fallen apart over the past fifteen years because the "trust" has not maintained the property and at least $60,000 has evaporated in to the mist. And that is a conservative estimate.

Meanwhile the same group who broke the old ladies will in court, named the Whanau Trust in her name using her name for the social cach`e it brings in hapu, iwi circles. Lucky it is the 21st century aye? In the days of our tupuna I would be within my rights to take eyes for this.

That is why I would rather give my land to the hapu or iwi. When my mother died, I lost more than a parent...I lost my belief in whanau, my turangawaewae...but I learned a lot about myself and my own principles, and what I can hold on to and that has increased its lustre over the years.

Edited by - kuri on Dec 14 2006 11:03:09 AM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14 December, 2006 10:59 am
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

It sounds like you know who did this kuri. I am referring to the, certain "whanau" statement.

it also sounds like they are very closely related since they were able to stop the probate proceedings. Do you have siblings? if they are part of that group of, certain "whanau" then you have very little to work with. If not, then legally as her descendents, the land shares or her estate, belongs to you the children.

I would legally challenge any other persons right to interfere.

Kia kaha!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18 December, 2006 2:32 pm
Page 1 / 2
Share: