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matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Tena tatou katoa

With the introduction of christianity into NZ, Maori were faced with another world view that we had not experienced before. The concept of one God was not new but many things in the bible were new to us and yet we mostly embraced those ideas. Many prominent warrior chiefs converted. But what of Rangi and Papa? Tane, Tu, and Tangaroa?

The purpose of this thread is to explore/share different ideas about spiritual issues, not to dis-respect the religious beliefs of others. Alternative views welcome. Also if anyone has historical information on human evolution, theories on Maori origins, I would be keen to hear about it.

Ka Kite

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Posted : 12 October, 2006 11:55 am
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

Do Rangi and Papa need our belief in them to exist?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 October, 2006 1:53 pm
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora my friend

Good question. I think they do to exist in the form we have given them. The existence of the planet is obvious. However the story of Rangi and Papa I believe was our attempt to give creation and its characters names and meaning.

The chances of creation actually happening that way are slim yet the story serves us to explain the appearance of life and is as good as any. The same would apply to all creation myths..there is just not enough known to corroborate its factual basis.

It is my understanding of metaphysics that there exists a dimension where all our thought forms dwell. The more people that believe in something, anything, the more tangible and real it becomes there, until its reality is also felt here. The less it is believed, the less tangible it becomes.

There are stories about Eygptian curses that were actually thought forms created by skilled priests in order to protect certain places. There is much evidence to suggest these curses were very real. This was considered a science by ancient peoples and is even mentioned in the bible as being taught to humanity by fallen angels.

Now Maori had similar abilities here based, as it would appear, on the same principles. They also say that this knowledge came from the Gods contained in one of the three baskets of knowledge.

Whether a story is true or not does not detract from its practical use if the results are predictable and reliable.

For example, stories that tohunga could once control the weather are commonplace in our traditions. There are even stories in my family going back only two generations. If our ancestors prayed or performed rituals to produce these effects and in the process invoked the assistance of a particular deity, would that in itself be enough?

If they were praying to them and the effect happened, whether they exist or not is irrelevant. They could be constructs to assist the mind in producing the effects. Who knows?

You could say also that through ritual scientists today can invoke the nuclear God of explosions and cause a nuclear reaction. Whether that God exists or not does not mean that it will not go boom. The difference is only that the scientist does not pray to that God.

What do you think?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 October, 2006 5:36 pm
Hotutaua OWC
(@hotutaua-owc)
Active Member

Oneday you will die your body our flesh, te taha tinana will decay fron old age. It will rot wether it is in the ground or rot wether it is bove the ground either way it will die and rot, ashes to ashes dust to dust. DEAD.The answeres to all life, death, imortality or etenal life is in the Bible, the answeres to everything is written in the bible. The author of this bible is not man, but there are people who believe that man is the author. The bible is not a european/pakeha concept nor is it a hebrew jewish concept.

But it is a history story of a chosen people who God uses to bring salvation to all mankind for their wicked ways of sin and sin is death for and for some who chose eternal death.

Mauri ora is not of man nor is wairua or spirit, but with out mauri ora man cannot exist.
Man was formed and birthed out of the whenua inside the hapu of Papatuanuku.

The bible says that God breathed into the nostrils of man and man became a living soul.
this soul is also te taha o te Hinengaro, the soul is an eternal spirit or te taha wairua or a spritiual DNA of that person.

A persons spiritual DNA was created by God long before Rangi and Papa were formed. From the time of a persons first breath to the time of a persons last breath on this earth he or she has time to decide who their God is.

Not even the bigest atomic bomb can distroy the spiritual DNA of a person, nor can an atomic bomb destroy Heaven and Hell. But an Atomic bomb will distory Papatuanuku and even Papa will become ashes to. If this dose happen then scientist will finaly meet their maker and he is Jesus Christ of the bible born of a virgin conceieved by te taha wairua tapu.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12 October, 2006 8:50 pm
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

Well that was kinda not on the same topic Hotutaua. Matahuru is not challenging any belief system, be it bible or otherwise. Maybe your right Te Matahuru belief is enough for some.

Um i watched a documentary once about a study done on some French Nuns and Chinese Monks, and their brain activity. There brains were analysed both while the nuns were in deep prayer and the monks in meditation. The results of the scans were that at the time of this the same particular region of the brain was firing and very active. This region also was a rather dormant region rarely used in brain function.

I propose that maybe through belief and culture, karakia and iriiri, the brain function in the possesor is therefore heightened. There are also some who believe that the dormant regions of the brain if active would enable a person to commit telepathic and telekinetic abilities. If this is true then i propose the clashing science and religion to be a matched made in heaven!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 8:50 am
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

The bible is written therefore by the hand of man! Just like it is mass manufactured and so forth and so on

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Posted : 13 October, 2006 8:51 am
Hotutaua OWC
(@hotutaua-owc)
Active Member

Everything has a beginning and everything has an end. It is true the bible was written by the hand of man but it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Io Matua te Kore, God, GOd had no beginning and God has no eneding. With out God there would have been no man. With out the Mauri of God Man would be nothing but dirt. Take the brain out of any man and Both will die, not even the brain can live for ever. Its the heart of man thats sins against God and sin is death from generation to generation untill one generation repents and ask for salvation from eternal hell. Maori is just a man and if he has sin, then repentants and forgiveness is the only thing that is going to save him from eternal hell. Without Jesus in the Life of Maori, Maori is Nothing, Just another race trying to prove it spirituality which is as old as dem hills. Maori is reponsible for its own future but its to busy looking back less that 150 years ago and everyday people are dieing, from alcohol, drug abuse, violence, where is this so called sprirtuality, this aroha as a race. Mauri Ora isnt Maori, Mauri Ora was given to Maori by God. Te Taha Wairua is God.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 1:50 pm
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

There is no justification of this. Inspired by the Holy Spirit? Maybe? And maybe not! Again you cannot prove this past belief. Io matua had no such child that is Jesus. However, i do not claim him not to be of reality. Io matua is a term applied to the all time creator by Maori or the ancients whose blood line is to me. Jesus is not for all and nor does he need to be. Buddhism, Taosim, Paganism all religions dating back further than Christianity. Are either of them wrong? Whats so different about now and the time before Jesus? Have people really changed all that much? The influence of Christianity I agree is huge but the fact remains, people are still being slaughtered in the name of religion. Islam!

Sin? Well although you may be born with sin, i do believe that i am not! If god wanted me to sit here in worship of him then he would have made me so. But the fact is that he didn't.

Hell? What is hell? Where? If god is so forgiving then there should be no hell! Why do we need to ask for forgiveness? Should he not give it just as freely. If he knows what is in our hearts, and if he created them then is not the fault indeed in the palm of his hands?

Christianity will have its place in this world along with everyother elief system there is. Each to their own!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 2:31 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


Each to their own!


Then you would have left hotutaua alone with his own whakaaro...ine?

kia vao'o ana teia metua no te mea tei roto i a ia te 'aka'irinaki'anga 'e te 'inangaro katoa i te 'akamori atu i te Atua.

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Posted : 13 October, 2006 6:19 pm
matahuru OWC
(@matahuru-owc)
Eminent Member

Kia ora Hotutaua

I commend and respect your strength of faith. And taiga is correct to assert that it is not my intention to challenge bible doctrine. I just think there is more to the story.

A wise man once told me that in order to see the big picture one must look through as many windows as is avaliable. I have studied many doctrines and all seem to share a common thread.
Treat others as you would like to be treated, respect and love your fellow man, contribute part of your harvest to the benefit of the whole etc.

These are just some of the precepts that most religions share. However many people tend to focus on the differences, the details, and that I think is a mistake. It puts walls where there should be none.

I recently have been studying sumerian culture. They are credited with the first known written scrpit and there records are the oldest known. Many of there stories are very similar to bible stories, however they predate the bible by thousands of years. They are more detailed in their history and the some tracts of the bible become clear once you have read their version.

They state, as do the original aramaic scriptures, that there were many players involved in the beginning of humanity. The word elohim or annunaki to them, is used in many places in the original texts. The romans changed these writings in the council of nicea, constantanople around 500ad and replaced it with 'God'. Elohim is actually a word that means 'gods', it is plural. Again I do not wish to challenge doctrine, but this information is common knowledge amongst the top bible scholars of the world.

All I am saying is maybe we should look deeper. Remember the romans used to feed christians to the lions and when they saw that even then the christians would not forsake their God, they converted and now claim to be the christian authority in the world with the power to forgive sins and give absolution. Also that John Paul the 2nd, in the year 2000AD asked the world for forgiveness after 2000 years of catholic crimes against humanity. An historical event that I was priviledged to witness even if it was only on TV.

After changing certain passages and editing others, they then outlawed all original copies with the threat of death by crucifixion or burning at the stake. They are the editors of the bibles we now have in our homes.

I believe that the original version iws as true as the authors knew it to be. I wish I had a copy of that version and could understand the ancient sacred languages.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 6:40 pm
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

Indeed Tane Ariki each to their own!
I only pose these questions to see how deep Hotutawa's understanding goes. For the benefit of myself and i believe him as well. (Sorry if not a him)

Through question the understanding is unveiled!

Whakaaro noa!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 6:52 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

quote:


only pose these questions to see how deep Hotutawa's understanding goes. For the benefit of myself and i believe him as well. (Sorry if not a him)


Ah! True that...but then its all subjective in the end (what one considers deep or shallow...?)?

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Posted : 13 October, 2006 6:54 pm
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

Indeed but the measurement of his understanding is what i am in search of.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 6:58 pm
tane_ariki OWC
(@tane_ariki-owc)
Trusted Member

yes but in the end that fails because we all have a bias towards all things 🙁 Its the human condition I guess?

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Posted : 13 October, 2006 7:00 pm
taiga
(@taiga)
Trusted Member

It only fails if you let it. Is it not of greater advantage to strive for this understanding? Or to sit idle?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13 October, 2006 7:07 pm
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